Curse

winkgood · Sep 08, 2006, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

So you're basing whether one modifier is better than another assuming that you can't attack?

That's one of the worst arguments for justifying a weapon modifier that I've seen. You can make an argument that sundering is better for the potential of "spike" damage (i.e. getting lucky and hitting that 20% chance 2-3 times in a chain), but arguing that "lower DPS" doesn't mean it's a worse modifier is an oxymoron.

The purpose of weapons is to DAMAGE. And if one modifier is proven to give you a higher Damage Per Second than another modifier, it is simply better.

My reasoning isn't based on the assumption that you can't attack. I am saying that in a PVP environment, there are frequently times where your hits simply do not connect. Normally, the life steal from a vampiric will compensate for the health lost from the -1 regen but in the case of pvp, this is oftentimes not the case. Unless you are careful and good about switching off your vamp when you are blind/blurred/etc, then you are creating an unneccessary burden on your monk that would not be present with sundering. You speak as if damage were the only thing important to a weapon. If this is the case, then why are +15%/-5nrg, +15%/-10AL, +15%/-1degen less popular than +15%^50 mods? Could it be that damage isn't everything and that staying alive is also important? There are many top guilds out there that don't use superior attribute runes (even for warriors). So I guess by your reasoning, they are inferior since they can't deal as much damage?

Look, I am all for using various mod combinations. Here are my main pvp axes:
1. Zealous Axe of Fortitude
2. Vampiric Axe of Fortitude
3. Furious Axe of Fortitude
4. Ebon Axe of Fortitude
5. -5nrg Shocking Axe of Fortitude

I switch off depending on the situation. I would recommend that any competitive PvP player do the same thing.

The reason I'm siding with the OP is because the manner in which other posters have gone about in telling the OP their opinions on sundering. Everyone is so concerned with saying that they are right that they are coming across as being rude and flaming the OP.

If you read the link I gave above, you will realize that the damage difference between sundering and vampiric is actually minimal at best. Sure, if you are a lead warrior in a top guild, you'll want to look into other options besides the generic "sundering weapon of fortitude" but personally I feel that most players in the game are not responsible enough to handle vampiric weapons and constantly be switching weapons depending on the situation. The OP may or may not fit into this category. But if I were a monk in a typical PUG, I would much rather have people stick with sundering than to constantly have to heal them because they can't responsibly use a vampiric mod.

***

I don't have a problem with people giving advice to others. I do have problems when the manner in which its done is a poor manner.

Bad Examples:
Sundering Sucks!
ZOMG noob! Sundering ftl!
Only noobs use sundering.
Vampiric is soooo much better than sundering!

Good example:
You might want to consider a vampiric weapon combo as well. In most situations, a vampiric modded weapon will outdamage a sundering one.

Gigashadow · Sep 08, 2006, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by winkgood

Think of how many spikes in pvp are done as the target is fleeing. All hits to a fleeing target will result in a critical hit. So in testing, a high number of critical hits should be included. Also, the reason the op used wild blow was to get a consistent amount of damage. Other tests are by far more flawed as the damage done varies with each hit.

'Fleeing' targets in PvP will strafe away, instead of running away with their back to the warrior, if they are any good. This does not result in an auto-crit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by winkgood

I don't have a problem with people giving advice to others. I do have problems when the manner in which its done is a poor manner.

The original poster himself would probably not get comments like this if he didn't call other people on the thread a 'whiny kid' when he himself is one. Also using the arguments 'I don't care I just play for fun' and 'Do you want to be like everyone else' is an auto-lose when the debate is about game mechanics.

Dante the Warlord · Sep 08, 2006, 10:33 PM // 22:33

dude...i called the flamers whiny kids...not anyone else a whiny kid... lots of people i see are respecting my opinion that i chose sundering, even though they still think vampiric is better. I respect that, i hate that you called me a whiny kid and if you look at this thread you can see that flamers started getting on my case... winkgood is 100% right if you say something in the right way...it will be viewed as an opinion, not a flame.

Also, Yanman.be, i can see your point, but i only take opinions from people who are kind and say a respectable statement, i.e. "not a bad choice, but id take more of vampiric instead, try to buy a nice cheap sword and mod that if you need more cash". I am using both sundering and vampiric (victo's blade), and to tell whats best??? who knows, warriors may become lesser known with AL levels if there becomes a classs with an even higher AL level and low offense.

Maybe if people actually stop flaming, this thread may have been more useful.

Also, to Yanman, i totally agree with your intake now and i am trying to find a +5 defense mod for my PvE sword, its a better choice for now, untill i get uber rich and get a nice sword. thats a +15% mod and customize it...it think my crellenated sword is best for PvP right now. And ill use my cheap +5 energy for PvE and i switch between victo's and +5 energy for defense while regularly walking for those SUPER ANNOYING RANDOM ENEMIES POPPING OUT!!!! and switch to victo's to destroy them.

Dante the Warlord · Sep 08, 2006, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gigashadow

Also using the arguments 'I don't care I just play for fun' and 'Do you want to be like everyone else' is an auto-lose when the debate is about game mechanics.

^^^thats also a bad thing to say...do you want to be a copycat and have NO ORGINALITY!!! and do what other people say? You should find your own build and when the new storylines open up buy some new skills and publish your build and its ideas and why you did it. That way many people can use those skills as a base and see what other builds they can make inspired by those builds. Unless you want to stay with old builds that aren't usefull when new types of classes come out. And playing for fun is the definition of a game...this isn't like a life who would want to play this game for so long, knowing that its going to come to an end anyway??? Its a really nice game, come on dude!? unless you use ebay to get money and pay your bills with the money you make...i wouldn't ever say that "don't play this game for fun" even if it is involving game mechanics, people generally play for fun and not for winning and really everyone is a winner cause the losers always get sometihing...wel almost all the time.

This is exactly why i think that all skills are usefull....Areanet and NcSoft will publish thousands of skills and many players will find uses for that skill and make it a build. Next time, play with a few freinds and make a guild or something and play with them...see how fun it is!!!

Yanman.be · Sep 08, 2006, 11:01 PM // 23:01

If you want to max out game mechanics, there is no such thing as originality. Do you think you're original because every nub whammo without FDS has 20/20 sundering? That's why it's price is so high.

Collector items and cheap greens are your friends.

I'm one of those people who don't care about looks, but numbers. That's why I will always say nay against 15K armour and FoW.

warriorsmiley · Sep 08, 2006, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Time to get back on track here. I like both fortitude and Defense mods. It can come in handy to have both. Like say in pve your under attack by a ton of foes your defense mod will reduce the damage by tons where as if your facing mostly degen the defense is useless and the fortitude mod is better. Its all a situational thing comes in handy to have both.

Gigashadow · Sep 08, 2006, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dante the Warlord

^^^thats also a bad thing to say...do you want to be a copycat and have NO ORGINALITY!!! and do what other people say? You should find your own build and when the new storylines open up buy some new skills and publish your build and its ideas and why you did it. That way many people can use those skills as a base and see what other builds they can make inspired by those builds. Unless you want to stay with old builds that aren't usefull when new types of classes come out. And playing for fun is the definition of a game...this isn't like a life who would want to play this game for so long, knowing that its going to come to an end anyway??? Its a really nice game, come on dude!? unless you use ebay to get money and pay your bills with the money you make...i wouldn't ever say that "don't play this game for fun" even if it is involving game mechanics, people generally play for fun and not for winning and really everyone is a winner cause the losers always get sometihing...wel almost all the time.

This is exactly why i think that all skills are usefull....Areanet and NcSoft will publish thousands of skills and many players will find uses for that skill and make it a build. Next time, play with a few freinds and make a guild or something and play with them...see how fun it is!!!

I sort of agree with you, but it depends what one's goal is; if you play competitively in GvG for example, then originality is not intrinsically something to strive for - winning is. For this reason, in high end GvG matches you will see that there are certain skill bars that characters typically have (shock axe warrior, blindbot, etc.). There is certainly originality there also, but there's also a lot of "copycatting" if someone develops a character that is clearly superior (like the boonprot). Nobody remembers who invented character build X, but they do remember who won the championship.

If you don't play competitively (which is fine, because most people don't), then all bets are off of course, and many people have a lot of fun fooling around with new and bizarre builds, even if they are suboptimal. I do this myself often when screwing around, using skills I know to be kind of bad. Some times I do this just to prove to myself the skill really is as bad as I think it is. But I do at least know when I am doing this.

When people debate whether A is better than B, though, it's got to be on the mechanics or merits of A or B. It can't be on subjective things like whether A or B is "more fun", because you can never prove anything that way.

Also, skills aren't all equally useful; if this were true, no skills could ever be buffed or nerfed, as they would no longer all be equally useful. For example, let's say all skills are (somehow) equally useful today, and then Mantra of Recall gets nerfed next week -- then it can't remain true that they're all still equal.

Some skills exist mainly to counter other skills or metagame situations, and therefore will not be very good unless those metagame situations currently exist. Other skills are just plain bad, and will likely get buffed in the future so that they see more use (as ArenaNet is constantly buffing skills - for example, some skills have over time gone from mediocre to in danger of becoming overpowered; e.g. Mantra of Recovery).

Yanman.be · Sep 08, 2006, 11:11 PM // 23:11

Gigashadow, sundering isn't original either is it?

warriorsmiley · Sep 08, 2006, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by winkgood

My reasoning isn't based on the assumption that you can't attack. I am saying that in a PVP environment, there are frequently times where your hits simply do not connect. Normally, the life steal from a vampiric will compensate for the health lost from the -1 regen but in the case of pvp, this is oftentimes not the case. Unless you are careful and good about switching off your vamp when you are blind/blurred/etc, then you are creating an unneccessary burden on your monk that would not be present with sundering.

I switch off depending on the situation. I would recommend that any competitive PvP player do the same thing.

So you say that when your not connecting to keep your vamp on and make your monks job that much harder. Then you go on and say that you have many weapon switches that you recommend other people to do it. Thing is any competent competitive player already knows to have weapon switches.

Silver_Fang · Sep 08, 2006, 11:18 PM // 23:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by winkgood

My reasoning isn't based on the assumption that you can't attack. I am saying that in a PVP environment, there are frequently times where your hits simply do not connect. Normally, the life steal from a vampiric will compensate for the health lost from the -1 regen but in the case of pvp, this is oftentimes not the case. Unless you are careful and good about switching off your vamp when you are blind/blurred/etc, then you are creating an unneccessary burden on your monk that would not be present with sundering. You speak as if damage were the only thing important to a weapon. If this is the case, then why are +15%/-5nrg, +15%/-10AL, +15%/-1degen less popular than +15%^50 mods? Could it be that damage isn't everything and that staying alive is also important? There are many top guilds out there that don't use superior attribute runes (even for warriors). So I guess by your reasoning, they are inferior since they can't deal as much damage?

Look, I am all for using various mod combinations. Here are my main pvp axes:
1. Zealous Axe of Fortitude
2. Vampiric Axe of Fortitude
3. Furious Axe of Fortitude
4. Ebon Axe of Fortitude
5. -5nrg Shocking Axe of Fortitude

I switch off depending on the situation. I would recommend that any competitive PvP player do the same thing.

The reason I'm siding with the OP is because the manner in which other posters have gone about in telling the OP their opinions on sundering. Everyone is so concerned with saying that they are right that they are coming across as being rude and flaming the OP.

If you read the link I gave above, you will realize that the damage difference between sundering and vampiric is actually minimal at best. Sure, if you are a lead warrior in a top guild, you'll want to look into other options besides the generic "sundering weapon of fortitude" but personally I feel that most players in the game are not responsible enough to handle vampiric weapons and constantly be switching weapons depending on the situation. The OP may or may not fit into this category. But if I were a monk in a typical PUG, I would much rather have people stick with sundering than to constantly have to heal them because they can't responsibly use a vampiric mod.

***

I don't have a problem with people giving advice to others. I do have problems when the manner in which its done is a poor manner.

Bad Examples:
Sundering Sucks!
ZOMG noob! Sundering ftl!
Only noobs use sundering.
Vampiric is soooo much better than sundering!

Good example:
You might want to consider a vampiric weapon combo as well. In most situations, a vampiric modded weapon will outdamage a sundering one.

Notes: he didn't use sundering, so the person who support you don't even use a sundering mod.

BTW, i don't see any flame in here other than stating sundering isn't as good as vampiric or zealous and its WAY cheaper, stating 2 facts is not flaming.

Good manner or not, it doesn't matter, at least they didn't said the OP sucks so hard and laugh at him. We just question him how can he got money to get an obviously overprice mod and screamed he is poor when he can get a better one at way cheaper price. 5k is not hard to earn in Faction.

Why sundering is not good? its not constant, its base on chance.

Soldat · Sep 08, 2006, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dante the Warlord

ARRRGGGGGG!!!!!! the next person to tell me to junk sundering ,why don't YOU give me 60k...then ill change it.

Ok.. first of all, just because sumthing is expensive, doesnt mean its good. It just gives new GW players the impression that it is because some older ones still think sundering rocks. Then it cycles through cuz the newer players wanna make enuf money to buy those, without ever exploring other options, like zealous/vamp.

2nd of all, something doesn't just haf to perform better than something else to be "better" than it. Also take into consideration things like price. But in this case, a zealous or vamp mod is not only better in the sense it does more for you, its got a way better price, say 8k.

3rd of all, this is not considered "flaming". Likes someone else mentioned, it would b flaming if we said that u sucked and not your weapon. We're just trying to help; u can choose to listen or u can argue w/ 20 dif ppl.

Btw.. u could just get a armor +5 AND a Fort +30 mod. it's easy to switch out weapons, thats why u haf 4 weapon slots. If farmers can do it, why cant any1 else?

Divineshadows · Sep 08, 2006, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dante the Warlord

SUNDERING SUCKS

QFT. At least you have not customized your sundering weapon yet. Sell it to someone who does not have knowledge of game mechanics (and remember to be happy that guru posters felt the need to help you learn these mechanics) to extract the value you lost from buying it.

For warrior, ranger, and assassin weapon that you are actually going to use...always customize.

As others have stated, in PvE go with +5 armor and in PvP go with +30 health.

Silver_Fang · Sep 09, 2006, 12:31 AM // 00:31

BTW, Sundering stack with Strength AP and it can be triggered on normal strike. Strength can only be triggered on Attack skill.

Dante the Warlord · Sep 09, 2006, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silver_Fang

Notes: he didn't use sundering, so the person who support you don't even use a sundering mod.

BTW, i don't see any flame in here other than stating sundering isn't as good as vampiric or zealous and its WAY cheaper, stating 2 facts is not flaming.

Good manner or not, it doesn't matter, at least they didn't said the OP sucks so hard and laugh at him. We just question him how can he got money to get an obviously overprice mod and screamed he is poor when he can get a better one at way cheaper price. 5k is not hard to earn in Faction.

Why sundering is not good? its not constant, its base on chance.

I agree with him because he is saying what i am also saying, i don't want you to say something like SUNDERING SUCKS, which is a flame in my mind... its just a gesture really, but i hate it when people group up on me and say that they are right, and i am stupid and to junk a mod that i had to spend a bunch of time getting, they didn't even consider that I'm not rich, just because i have this blade dosen't mean im a super rich farmer.

I bought my blade a while back when it was still expensive and i really hate to sell it. I've had a for a few months and its been fun and pretty useful. If anyone could give me or sell me a blade for a cheap price id be really happy. I don't actually own the victo's blade yet, so im still looking, also i need some mods and clean +15% blades for customizing .... thanx anyways for those who have settled down and listened to some of my posts and stopped flaming...i think you guys get why I got so riled up.

Franco · Sep 09, 2006, 08:48 AM // 08:48

Oh come on mate ^_^ defense mod is only like 3k.

But anyways, What Gigashadow is in PvP those spike warrior targets will flee, or if you found a mesmer, ehem. Ineptitude ?

.

So warriors arent really a important role to "spike targets" they are there more to put pressure in the opponent monk, mesmer, and other core spell casters. Sure they should do damage, but thats not they most important role.

Shadowfox1125 · Sep 09, 2006, 09:14 AM // 09:14

Dante, go get a 15>50 sword from a collector, then add a vamp and defense mod. It should cost you like 6k.. >.>

Dante the Warlord · Sep 09, 2006, 11:16 AM // 11:16

....hmm...i don't think so...shouldn't it be like 20K? and if so where can i find this 15^50 sword? Which collector?

winkgood · Sep 09, 2006, 11:22 AM // 11:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franco

So warriors arent really a important role to "spike targets" they are there more to put pressure in the opponent monk, mesmer, and other core spell casters. Sure they should do damage, but thats not they most important role.

I take it you don't pvp very often. I play warrior and caller for a GvG guild. Adreneline spikes teamed with ele or mesmer spells are what causes deaths in competitive gvg. Sometimes a warrior will be assigned to pressure or KD a monk while the rest of the team is spiking, but there is almost always a warrior spiking the main target as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dante the Warlord

....hmm...i don't think so...shouldn't it be like 20K? and if so where can i find this 15^50 sword? Which collector?

Here are some collectors in factions that have them:
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Sakai
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Master_Architect_Wright

I'm not positive, but I think the weapon crafters in droks and possibly keineng center can craft you one as well, although these will cost about 5K + materials.

Franco · Sep 09, 2006, 11:26 AM // 11:26

Quote:

Adreneline spikes teamed with ele or mesmer spells

Pfft, and you think you're the one that does the main spike?

You obviously don't know what a mesmer is.

Get your warrior and come and see me.

Skuld · Sep 09, 2006, 11:28 AM // 11:28

Franco, adrenal spikes are usually 2 warriors hitting a couple of attacks under frenzy, aided by Shadow Strike, Lightning Orb or Energy Surge.